Name: Finding the Truth in a changing world
Uploaded: 2025-04-09T16:01:04.326Z
Duration: 45 min 4 s
Description: Finding the Truth in a changing world

Transcript for "Finding the Truth in a changing world": Hello, and welcome. Good morning. Welcome to adapting to changing communication methods with myself, Nicole Hazaz, and my colleague, Mark Hagembar. We're gonna be together for the next forty five or so minutes. We'll be talking for the next thirty minutes or so and then save the last fifteen for some q and a. And let's kick off. So, we're gonna start today. I'll show you a little agenda, what we're gonna be talking about, what to think about when starting an investigation, some of the changes we've seen with the impact of work from home and and the new technology advances in the past few years, some of the challenges we've seen, and the needs, intact to respond to those challenges, and then hopefully do a little, crystal gazing and say what we see in the future. And then we'll wrap it up with a couple of takeaways. To start, you're gonna probably wonder who we are and why we're able to speak on these topics. I'll pass it to my colleague Mark first to introduce himself. Yes. Good morning, everyone. Welcome, and thank you for joining. I'm pleased to be here with Nicole Hazaz over at Everlaw. My name is Mark Hagembar. I am a consultant e disclosure project manager over at McFarland's in London, where we do the full range of data forensics, data scoping, investigations, dispute resolution, and through to trial presentation. And I'm also CEO and founder of xBundle, which is a trial bundle presentation and software company. So we're able to get involved in and do deal with the cradle to grave service of any type of disputes investigation service. And I've been doing this for involved in the legal industry for over thirty years now. Thanks, Mark. A very impressive resume. And over thirty years, undoubtedly, you've seen a lot of change. I don't have quite as much experience as Mark, but I've been in the industry since 02/2006, working initially, obviously, with the the advent of paper scanning and then moving all the way up to what disclosure is today. I've worked in both New York and London and have seen a lot of, international dispute resolution in previous roles. And now I work at Everlaw and help companies bring in technology to help respond to the requests that we see. Great. So I think we'll kick off with, you know, what you when you're starting an investigation, what are some of the things that you would like to keep top of mind? And this is something Mark and I talk about a lot in our work together. So, yeah, Mark, what are some of the things that you're thinking about when you are starting an investigation? Sort of thing you're thinking about is why are you doing what you're doing? What are you trying to achieve? What have you actually been asked to do? So then when you'd understand what you're being asked to do, it's understanding and getting an idea of what the business is and how they manage data. And what is data? It's about how do people these days communicate with each other. Days gone by, when I first started out, it was paper and pen, printed carbon copy. That's involved ultimately, we're still dealing with how do people talk to each other, what formats of people are talking to each other, and we're coming on later into this, webinar about the evolving types of communication. So I won't touch on that here. So to keep in top of mind, mind, who are your custodians? Custodians, they're the employees in the business, the individuals who may be consultants to the business, agents for the business, anyone who's involved in discussions, communications. So how do these people talk to each other? The what, the where, the when, and the how. Email is still very much, I would say, almost 90% of the data pool which you're gonna be collecting these days. That's evolving into different types of mail communications. So that's gonna be your initial treasure trove, and that should be your easy win with regards to getting data. Data mapping, you're talking yep. Sorry. That's right. So, like, when doing custodian interviews, what are some of the things obviously, emails coming up, and that's a that's a no. But when you're doing these interviews, you're doing a bit of data mapping. You're trying to understand what else they use. What are some of the things that you're thinking about when when talking to them about what systems that they do use? Right. So you're talking about systems. I mean, do they use the Microsoft Suite products? Do they use a Google Suite type of product? How do the data stored? How do they share the data? What access they got got network drives? What their what are their cloud repositories? Are they on premise repositories? How does that interface with mobile devices? How does that interface with laptops? How does it interface with desktops? Where are people working these days? It's not just talking about people who are working office based. People you've got mobile employees. You've had mobile employees the last ten, fifteen years, which we had to consider and talk about. How is that data synchronized to a central point? Is it a case you can get all your data from a central point? Do you have to be running around, getting laptops, mobile phones? Understanding how the infrastructure works and where it's collected can save you a lot of time, a lot of money with regards to potentially collecting from devices whereby you've collected a device and all you're collecting is shortcuts from that device, which points back to a central repository. So don't think crucial point. Don't don't be fooled. Where where is it going? Where is synchronizing to? Talk to your custodians. How do you save data? How do you work with data? If you created a document, where is it saved to? If you're offline and where does it synchronize back to a central server? What's the bring your own device policy? Is there a bring your own device policy? How are mobile devices managed? Is there a mobile device management policy? If it if they use because this next point you've got down data ownership, when you're talking about mixed data on a personal device and a business device, what are the GDPR issues involved in that sort of stuff? A lot of things to think about and questions to ask. So structure out again, it's the what, where, when, how. What do they use? Where do they use it? How do they use it? How do they talk to each other? And stuff like that. That. And and, really, what are you needing to collect? What is in scope? Are you gonna go out there and not just look under every stone on the beach, but are you also thinking about taking your own stones to the beach to look under those stones as well? What's the extent? Is it an investigation? Is it a dispute? What's the proportionality? What's the risks involved with missing stuff? Is it forward excellent points. Missing out? Yeah. Really excellent points there. Especially thinking about jurisdiction, jurisdiction, and the ownership of the data. This is something that's been brought up a lot at LIDW, especially on some of the panels yesterday. Understanding, again, the pointers, where the data is and actually where it lives versus where you see it. This is me in a number of projects where we've had to do a recollection later on. And then the encryption on that data. Again, you might own it. You might be able to collect the device, but if it's encrypted, how do you deal with it? So really interesting points there. I think moving a little, forward, we're thinking about, some of the changes we've seen in the last few years. So, obviously, there's been a big impact from the shift to work from home. There was a huge rush to buy a lot of new technology. A lot of my clients talk about this, how they bought a huge tech stack in the beginning of COVID to ensure business continuity. It might have gone ahead of, the regulation and policy that the companies do have on terms of communication. So, you know, what are you seeing now, Mark, that is coming out of of the work from home period as some sort of the new, the new technology communications that you've seen, and then what is the impact you've seen on on that in the review? Well, I think even before we had locked down the enforced work from home, if you can, the various diktats which came out from government in that respect. There were a lot of these different types of business communication tools. I mean, originally, we go back to, text messages. You had Bloomberg chats, and that sort of evolved. And you had you had Slack. You had Basecamp. I mean, does Basecamp even exist anymore? Has it morphed into something else? There's Skype chat. All these different various different platforms, when lockdown came in, people started throwing out, oh, let's use this communication thing. Let's start chatting in Teams. Let's start chatting in Zoom. I've got this. I found this other utility, this application, within, on the Internet somewhere. Let's install this and have a chat over this. Let's save documents here. We've got stuff which is being saved on people's personal Hotmail, accounts, people's Google Drive accounts. We're chatting there. You got Yahoo. You got AOL. All these sort of different types of accounts, which people are sort of digging out of the, back of their laptops and storing stuff, stuff starting to claim being saved on USBs, USBs being delivered all around the country, people's Internet not being big enough, zips all over the place. So there's a spread of data all over the place. And then that's just sort of proliferated as we we move forward. There's this massive take up in people doing Zoom calls, chatting on Zoom. Now that sort of thing is Zoom sort of in the ascendancy as Microsoft seem to have got their act together with Teams and improvements on Teams. Slack. Slack's a big the big part of it. So business continuity, all these sorts of different different things. There's a lot of stuff out there, but this actually goes back to data mapping. And the big thing about it is how do you capture this data? How do you find it? Where is it stored? How do you actually get it out? Mobile And also a question on if this on is on someone's personal account or a hard drive in a a drawer in their home as I am sitting, in my my home office right now. What is the responsibility to collect that data? What ownership does the company have over that data? And then does that custodian or the company even know that that data exists because something that happened three years ago who remembers exactly what happened, you know, three years ago when we all went the ship to work from home? There was a a mad panic. So Yeah. I mean, it's how many businesses even today have a data ownership policy? How many businesses actually have a bring your own device policy? Even if they do have a policy, is it richly enforced? What is the data secure? A lot of this is data security driven. A lot of businesses sort of the ciders are essentials, the ISO regulations, and the stuff like that. Ultimately, those are our policies, and it's getting behind the policies and finding out what is actually happening in the business. Where is this data stored? It's all about getting getting your hands on on the data. Once you then got a bigger problem, with regards to if you've got a dozen different streams of communication where people are chatting on email, they're chatting text messages, they're chatting chatting on WhatsApp, Signal, Telegram, Wickr, WeChat, Weibo, all these various different types of things which are global and understanding that one particular channel or app may be prevalent in one jurisdiction. It may be not used in the other one. It may be banned by, governments that you're not allowed to use WhatsApp. People are using VPNs to actually connect to these devices or mobile devices, so circumventing IP blocking and geo blocking. Again, with with and disappearing f three error messaging. It's it's Really valid point on the If you put it all together you put it all together, okay, you've got a whole bucket of unstructured data for all different structured things, you then gotta put Humpty back together again. Well, Mark, I think we're getting ahead of ourselves because we are gonna talk about how you put it back together in a second. But you definitely bring up a lot of good points about ethereal messaging, where it lives, the jurisdictionality of it, like, are certain systems being used in or even allowed to be searched afterwards. I remember about ten years ago, I was living and working in New York. I came to Amsterdam to visit a friend who worked at a bank there, and she was working the whole time in WhatsApp. And I came back to New York to talk to my colleagues and said, we have a major problem. We are not collecting the WhatsApp data from our European custodians. We absolutely need to start thinking about this. Because in New York at the time, it wasn't a thing that you used. So and that's where we were drafting our review protocols. So these are things you absolutely have to think about in terms of the policies, in terms of what you're looking at. And then going back to your initial point, Mark Hagembar, have those really in-depth conversations, with the custodians, but also with the data managers at these job at these, clients. So It's also the multiple device issue. You have these policies with regards to the devices. You've only yelled aloud to use the business device. You always looked at people suspiciously if they had two devices, two mobile phones. Nowadays, two two mobile phones is the norm, if not free mobile phones. People say, are you gonna use this one for business? Do you really? I might have actually sent them a text so I use the wrong phone on this, that, and the other. So, again, that crosses back over to data ownership. Exactly. So in terms of worth you just, you know, took the time off the new normal. What is this new normal? You know, multiple types of communications, technologies, multiple devices. What are you seeing being, requested when you are getting a disclosure request? It seems to be go and go as I said, go to the beach, turn over every stone, look under it, and tell me what's there. And you're getting template questionnaires or requests coming forward saying, we want this, this, this, that, and the other. People are still asking for backup tapes. I mean, I mean, that's a different subject. We're not talking about backups here. Regretting that. But it's a valid point. If you're saying people are still using old templates when there is a lot of new technology out there that we should be thinking about, the new normal should be don't use a template. Don't use a template. Think about what you're asking for. And, also, because you're thinking of you're trying to think about what the other side are looking for in a lot of these questionnaires. A lot of the questionnaires you're turning on the head. We know what we've got, so we know how we've communicated with them, but how else may they have been communicated? So when you're doing your data questionnaires, it's not ask it's not just worrying about what you've got, it's but how you communicate with the other people. Have you been using cloud data rooms? Have you been using the virtual data rooms? Have you been messaging over those virtual data rooms? Do you still have access to those virtual data rooms where all this data may be contained? Or as the project finished five years ago, you stopped your subscription and all that data's lost? How are we actually gonna be dealing with issues that? Are you dealing with messages where you've got links to data to data rooms and you just view it on the data room? You know, you didn't save a copy. You can see it existed, but how do you actually get to that data? So it's dealing with how that that is the new normal. It's us thinking intelligently and smartly about what you're looking for. And also in regards to investigations, when you get an investigation coming in and saying we want to do this now. We're actually going through it and saying, look. And going back to the regulator of the investigation saying, look. You've asked for all this, but this doesn't exist. We don't use it. We can't have this. We can't do that. If you need able to push back. It's it's push yes. Push back. It's it's it's not rolling over when you have having your tummy tickled. Be tell be smart. Alright. So I think that leads us into some of, you know, the challenges we see when we actually get to collect all of this data. We finally have, you know, narrowed down on a set of data. You're looking at, again, multiple sources, but you know what you have. And and now the burden is, well, now what do I do with this? What are some of the challenges you've seen? And we talked a lot about, you know, I think everything on this list and more, in in working together in some of these projects. Yep. So we've got we've collected in all your data in whatever format. And let's say that we've got it from we've understood what all the communication devices are, and we've got them all in, and we've got them in a viewable format. Okay. You will have encrypted documents. By encrypted, on a simple level, this means, password protected documents, potentially password protected or encrypted emails where you need MIME keys to s MIME keys to view those. We're not talking here really about end to end encryption because end to end encryption is what happens to the data when it's in transit. We're we're sort of working on the basis that the the documents we've got aren't encrypted messages, which you then need to sort of have a decryption key, can only be viewed on the device and having to remount the device and stuff like that. Passwords, I mean, password banks, what's your approach to encrypted documents? Do you say sorry to whoever the other side is or the other the regulator, sorry. These are all password protected. We don't have password protected. Or do you use password cracking software? Do you the old school password cracking software? Do you just use the first pass? Let's let's do a key let's search all the documents, anything which has got password in it, do a manual review, find out the passwords, or something a bit more sophisticated on that basis. So it's the approach to how far and what resources are you going to apply to any data which comes into you, which is encrypted. And I'm not talking about new technology is encrypted. So getting those encryption keys is crucial if you are going to have to look through it. I'm I'm not talking about any BitLocker encryption on image devices because I'm assuming that you've actually successfully got past that point. You got this data onto a platform where you're looking at it, talking about sort of document level, folder level encryption is what you need to be to be talking about. You then obviously when you're you're looking through this data, which particularly when you're talking about the messaging, communication, chat, the text messaging, that type of thing. Typically, if you're talking like office documents, then you're gonna have an author of the document, and the author of the document is gonna be the username, which is set up for that user's profile on the business's infrastructure. So it's maybe the case that say how for emails, what is the what is the cost how what is your email naming format? Okay. You may give someone their full name, but you may give them a short name for their, user account when they're logging into Windows, their active directory account. Maybe get issues from active directory as to what their active active directory user base are. With regards to some of the chat apps, people do use nicknames, but it's connected to their mobile number or email accounts. Also, how you you see that when you're extracting this data, that how someone has saved a person's name is in their contact's number is how it appears. So, for example, my wife phones me. I've gotta say her contact name is wife in my phone. So anything, which is chat messaging, anyone looks at it, it's gonna be Mark and wife, not not her actual full name. So that's a very simple explanation of the use of how names are. So unless you know that that wife could be anyone without the phone. So it's it's it's being able to link short names, full names, telephone numbers, email addresses, how thinking about how you're putting that. Because that impacts on how you're actually gonna be searching when you're doing your metadata metadata searching and stuff like that. Right. And you've got misspellings. People may misspell an email address. They may misspell a name and stuff like that, which comes on to typos, which is why when you're talking about sort of typos, when you're using searching, and chat app, people sometimes in chat. And it's like getting an email from Yoda. It it makes absolutely no sense. The people the people reading it will actually understand it because the brain will actually reassemble, the words to make it a misspelled word or reassemble it, and you can understand what's being said. Computers aren't that clever yet. They're getting there, but they're not that clever yet. Again, it goes on to jargon, people using emojis. Is there a standard format for emojis? No. There's not. Because you can download there are multiple, multiple different, sticker packs, which are available for download on iOS or, Android, Windows Store, Apple Store, all that sort of stuff, which there's there's no common format. How is it encoded? Is it readable? This is something that we face at Everlaw because clients constantly ask us, I wanna be able to search for this. And because of the ever changing nature of of what's developing, there's no way you can keep up with it. But, you know, we do endeavor, and that's something we'll talk about and what you look for when you, are looking at tech to solve these problems. So those are sort of things you're worried about, and that does so you're saying you're coming on to impact on, not just the unknown devices, but unknown file type, proprietary file types. How are you gonna deal with stuff which is custom built by a business, and you're looking at it on an industry standard cloud based document review platform such as Everlaw. And because it's proprietary to that business, there's not an available reader. How does that then how do you how do you then deal with that? So that is how the business has designed it to visually present it on their screens to their users. But what's behind it, which can is the data which can be read and understood by a machine. It it's it's understanding it's understanding that that information. So there there are information. So there there are the overall sort of challenges you've got with regards to, once you've actually found your data, once you've actually collected it, what are you then gonna do with it? Well, that perfect segue into the next question. You know, how do you pull it all together and create that cohesive review plan if you are looking at calendar, chat, text messages, emails, you know, DMs from different social media platforms? I mean, I have had situations where I'm talking to multiple colleague to one colleague on multiple systems at the same time. Yeah. So for example, in in this platform, we've got chat messaging, questions and answers and stuff like that. Right. We could be separately emailing. We could be separately talking about the same thing. Let's take this offline. You see you see all these in this chat. Let's take this offline. How? How are they taking offline? Where are they taking offline? Are they talking to each other? Are they SMS ing people? Are they emailing people? Where where is offline? Mhmm. Defining offline and what that actually means. Yeah. Putting putting all these together is very, very difficult. So when did you create a new we talked a lot about this. There is no magic bullet to this. There is no magic bullet. There there is no checklist standard process which you've got to go through. You need to be looking at each one as a different challenge. Okay. You would like to try and standardize things and stuff like that, but there is no there is no one common approach because different matters you're looking for different things in different cases, and it's not a pure technologist approach to any of this. You need There's no science to it. It's an art. It's it's it's absolutely an art. It's thinking outside But there could be some things you know, I've seen you, put together assignments that, you know, you mix the communications, but you haven't focused on one person so that the person who's actually doing the review can look through everything Mark did in a day, even though you're coming from about eight to 10 different systems. Yep. Absolutely. Absolutely. But that's identifying at the front end, which is where the custodian interview goes as to identifying which communication channels belong to the custodian, which goes back to what we've been previously talking about, which is nicknames, contact names, how do you identify which names, numbers that apply to which custodian so you can identify who your primary people are. And then then that's one way of sort of trying to smartly put them together. Right? This is all belongs to this custodian, and you're given a common custodian now to that individual person. So given these challenges, what are some of the things that you look for in technology, to to respond to that? It's a tricky question. And then You know, and I'm not Essentially, you you need you need something which is robust. It's fast. It's got plenty of resources behind it. By resources, I mean, computer power behind it. It's intuitive so that it's easy to use and operate by the end user who are technically your legal teams so that they can easily use it. It's so it's not sort of a a granular product to sort of do stuff like that. It's a drag and drop, click and build, trying to use an interface the user interface and the user experience of what's is more as important to the underlying resources and stuff like that. You get that right, then you're gonna get a product which people are gonna use and sales pitch for Everlaw. This is where I think Everlaw got it right. And they're not looking for a sales pitch. I'm I'm thinking more about In regards to continue updates, you need to be keeping abreast of how people are gonna communicate tomorrow. Not just how they communicated yesterday and today, but how is this going to evolve into the into the new communication, and how is that gonna feed into what we're existing gonna be doing? So a lot of this is visualization. It's the analytics. It's the technology review, the artificial intelligence. It's seeing how you can how these how these all connect. This person here created these documents, and this person also had these documents. This person is talking to these people, but he's also talking to these people over here. And to be able to narrow it and filter it onto date ranges and stuff like that, so you so you can sort of narrow it in to individual conversation streams. It's very much like if you're listening if you if you're making if you're a band and you're making music, you've got or a massive orchestra, you've got 48 different instruments playing altogether in your orchestra. But you want to be able to have a mixer where you can just pull out this instrument and just hear that being played. You want to put these you want to put the, windsurf Spotlight. Really on. Stuff like that. And put and put and and investigate it in and stuff like that. Pulling the document I mean, I think you're pointing to a couple of different technologies, and I'm not saying you know, this is this is out there in the market, and and most technology, systems do provide this, something like a communications map so you can see who's talking to who. Entity resolution, which will allow you to pull together, you know, the nicknames that you were talking about earlier that you call your wife wife in your phone. But if her email her email is not marks wife at, you know, agambar dot com. So being able to pull all those things together and say this is this is their name. At my job, for example, one of my colleagues, we affectionately call g. You know, hard as a search for just one letter, just g, it's, you know, quite difficult. So being able to have a system that will bring all of those entities together, resolve them into one one entity in itself, and then be able to search through that, as time goes on. So I think, yeah, that that definitely describes that. And I think that leads us to now, what what's on the horizon as you just said. You know, you have to be thinking about the technology that is thinking about the future. So what do you see coming up in the future? We obviously are seeing unlimited new forms of technology that my 13 sorry, 14 year old nephew tells me about every day. You know, aunt Nicole, you're not on, I don't even know what, Twitch or whatever else. So what are the things that you are seeing on the horizon? There's gonna be I think there's gonna be a a big divide between what the consumer uses day to day and what businesses use. And what businesses use is going to be to a greater extent driven by regulators' business concerns over data security, business concerns over business continuity, which we touched on, data storage, and knowing where all their data is and where all their communications is at any any one time. So I think there's gonna be a massive growth in the types of, communications channels, how the consumer uses, and and we're seeing multiple ones of those popping up every week. As to where the businesses are, I don't think there's not gonna be that much adoption, but you're gonna need to be able to still understand and know how those consumer communications work, particularly with the the regulatory, the competition type things because you're gonna need to be looking at those, seeing seeing those those type of information. So I think there's I think there's gonna be a narrowing in the business field as to the type of communication channels which you will see used, but a massive explosion in where how people how the consumer and the day to day. And I think that will then ultimately cross over into the business because you're then gonna have the workers within the business. And then as we're seeing at the moment, using the two devices, the multiple devices, or did I actually use that for that device, bring your own device, and stuff like that. So it's there's gonna be no clear clear direction, and there's gonna be a lot more out there, but it's gonna become a lot more messy and a lot more difficult to pull it all together. A positive, final note, I guess. I guess. It'll be a lot more messy, but you'll be able to pull it all together. Yeah. So that takes us to some takeaways, and I think we've, really said this throughout the throughout the discussion today. Never assume that you know everything that's that's going on. There is always new technology out there, and there are always, you know, discrete channels that you're not really aware of. The custodians and the data owners might not also be aware of. So that really means you have to do a lot of data mapping, a lot of interviewing, and just hope that you're getting a full picture. And then in in trying to respond to that, even if you do collect all the data, find some technology that can adapt as fast as, you know, what is being released so that you'll be able to respond as time goes on. A lot of great other takeaways in terms of, you know, don't worry, but it's all out there. And, pay attention to things like, you know, typos and jargon and other names and other devices. So with this, I think we're gonna go into some questions, and I see that my colleague has popped a few into the chat that we've gathered. So, one of the first questions is, you know, is there a recommended way to handle nicknames or misspellings? So we I can say that there's definitely things like fuzzy search, and the entity resolution which we talked about before. But, Mark, what what do you think? There's no single way. There's no one way. As I said earlier, there's no checklist. There's no stuff like that. It's understanding. Yes. We We've got the fuzzy searching, which has been around since date immemorial. But with regards, this is where your software technology in the background, your artificial intelligence, your clustering, your predictive coding, because search terms have always been a blunt blunt tool, and they miss more than they find. So you think about throwing your analytics at it first, seeing what that does rather than trying to understand who might be out there. You'll be surprised what you find. Trust in the technology. And I would say probably explore the technology. It is the fun part of the investigation or the dispute, kicking off for me where you get to do a little bit of that review, that analytics, and and see who's talking to who and what types of, you know, words are coming up over and over again that might be code or jargon for something else. So yeah. Another question came in. Can you give an example of ways people have hidden information Besides the example of wife, I'm I'm curious what else, has come up for you in the past. I definitely have some examples. One way I've seen it is with regards to having a Word document whereby they've the person has typed a put in a Word document, typed the information in it. But to conceal what's behind it, they've created an image and put dropped an image in a text box over the document. So when you open it on first look, you think, oh, this has got nothing to do with it and click forward. And it's only when you actually sort of have sort of closely looked at it and thinking that looks a bit odd, and they sort of realized that there is information hidden behind it. When you're talking about websites and stuff like that, you've got the old Stegonoff Stegonoffary. The motif aren't working, where you click on a link and it sort of takes a link through to a link, takes you information, clicks you through to another another site where the information other ways I mean, Excel spreadsheets are an obvious whereby you can hide sheets, hide rows, hide columns. I've seen before confidential business information being put into a sheets in a spreadsheet where someone has created, a front page, which says my income and outs outgoings, and I've called this, financials for mortgage application. Son's income and expenditure, but not looking beyond it and finding there's a whole host of business contacts in sheets and pages behind it. Even they haven't even been hidden the pages. They're just sort of going council tax 2039 to 2022 or whatever, stuff like that. Just renaming sheet purposely mislabeling. Purposely mislabeling things and stuff like that. I mean, that's that's that's the basic basic ways. I mean, hidden information. So many different ways of hiding information. Absolutely. I think this goes well into the next question I see here. So can you offer any advice on how to find information when the subject of the investigation of dispute was expecting search to be performed? I've got loads of story. I would say at my last, my last job, we ran a set of terms immediately on any new data we got in. So hot terms that we saw, including the word delete, we'd always go to deleted folder if you're collecting someone's information. And then we would also try to understand in their communications who else they're talking to so we can go after that. But, Mark, what what about you? People always make mistakes. I will a % agree on that. People always they will try and think that they're one step of the game. They will try and always only communicate certain people in certain terms and but then something slips. Something is said, which leads to another train of investigation, which I've goes back to early when you're searching. Don't be blinkered. There's no one way of doing stuff. Think outside the box. It's not this this is as you said, Nicole, this is an art, not a science. Yeah. One of my favorite, finds we found in using that hot terms list was, in a chat where fraud was being blatantly committed. One of the main custodians wrote, here's how you delete these messages. And, everyone in the chat was like, great. Those messages are deleted on their own personal devices, but not necessarily on the servers that they're recorded back to. So, that was one of our favorite finds. But, yeah, people going back to what you said, Mark, people are very obvious in what they're doing and they don't necessarily know all of the ins and outs of things. So, keep that in mind when you are doing your collections, to look at, I don't wanna say backup tapes, but look at source, as we we talked about earlier. Things might be pointers to other locations, so make sure you're getting the initial source data instead of the pointers. Okay. And I think that brings us to the end of our discussion today. There's no other questions that are coming in that are kind of pertaining to what we've talked about. So I wanna say thank you to everyone who's joined us. Hopefully, we found this conversation interesting and maybe take away a couple of tidbits for your next dispute that you work on. I wanna say thank you to Mark for offering your time this morning and and your expertise in, your many years of working in disputes and, and the like. And, and thank you to our to LIDW for having us. So have a great morning, everyone, and, have a great day. Thank you very much. Goodbye. Thank you.