Name: Adaptive Leadership in Action
Uploaded: 2025-07-16T18:23:04.712Z
Duration: 1 h 5 min 12 s
Description: Adaptive Leadership in Action

Transcript for "Adaptive Leadership in Action": Good morning, afternoon, or evening, everyone. Thank you so much for joining us today for our webinar, adaptive leadership in action. Today we're tackling really one of the most press pressing challenges in public sector legal work, and that is leading when the rule book does not exist. I mean, at at Everlaw, we have been exploring this topic, specifically around how you lead without the rule book. And so we use a framework, called adaptive leadership. And adaptive leadership really transforms outcomes whether, you know, it's it's in we've been exploring in our blog series. We explored it at a recent event called DC connect DC, which was, in, Washington DC. And we had a thought leadership day, and we had an expert lead some of our attendees in really this this groundbreaking work on on how to lead, when you don't have a rule book. So what why does this matter now? It matters because there are so many things happening in the public sector, as many of you here know. Some of those are just to mention, there's a larger data intensive investigations happening. Data is exploding right now. AI is at the forefront. So AI adoption, whether or not you use AI within your organization or with if your organization is planning to use it. And there's also just shrinking budgets. So the stakes have really never been higher. So we're gonna talk about some of this, and I am thrilled to be, accompanied today by two leaders who have navigated through difficult challenges and come out with success. First of all, Kathy Enstrom, she has spent twenty eight years had spent twenty eight years over twenty eight years, at the IRS Criminal Investigations leading large scale financial crime cases. Then she transferred over to the private sector, and she is currently the chief operating officer at More Tax Law Group. Also with me, Michael Sarich, director at VA's at the Veterans Administration's FOIA office. Michael is the architect behind the VA's FOIA modernization, where he leveraged adaptive leadership to process over a 120,000 annual requests, while protecting veterans' sensitive data. And more specifically, a call out here as well, when he was leading Veterans Health Administration or the VHA, he reduced FOIA backlog by 90% in fourteen months. So that's huge. So when we talk about technology and helping to reduce workloads and how to implement that into your organization, Michael is is the person. And finally, I am Gina Derva. I'm your moderator today. I am an attorney. I'm a former I finally worked in the public sector in both the prosecution side and the defense side. So, what we'll be exploring is, real strategies that you can apply tomorrow, whether you're leading a team or adapting your own approach. So, Kathy, Michael, thank you for joining us. And did I miss anything super important here in your bios? No, Gina. Thank you so much for the invitation to join this amazing and important conversation and, introducing me to Michael. And, like likewise, Kathy and Gina, thank you so much. It's a very generous introduction. I'm thrilled to be here with, you and Kathy and so many of our friends here, today. And I'll I'll just add this just very briefly that when I came into for into the federal space, oftentimes, FOIA was treated like a compliance check box where people said, hey, we're gonna check the box and and make this work. And I think we've really moved a long way and kind of flipped that. We made we had mission critical function that requesters could count on and that the public could trust. That shift kinda wasn't really operational. It was cultural and took adaptive leadership at every level. That's why I'm so excited to be here. And that leadership came from the frontline processors all the way up to senior executives. And just so to be a part of this conversation today, I'm really looking forward to it. Awesome. Yeah. Absolutely. What you said, we're gonna be talking so specifically about that, about it's a cultural shift, it's there's a technology shift, and it all comes together, hopefully for a successful outcome. So in terms of adaptive leadership, I do wanna give a very brief background, and then I will be turning it over to you fine fellow you fine people. So adaptive leadership in a nutshell, is not something I've made up. I wish I could take credit for it, but, it was created by, two experts at Harvard, and it's just this practical framework, that focuses on leading effectively in complex, uncertain, and rapidly changing environment. And you do that by mobilizing people to tackle these tough challenges and adapt to the new realities that you're in. There's five principles or so, that that actually, like, exemplify what what adaptive leadership is. I'll go through them briefly, and it's some of what we just spoke about. So the first thing you do in adaptive leadership is you'd you have to distinguish between what is a technical challenge for your organization, whether you work in federal, state, or local government, and what is an adaptive challenge. So when we talk about adaptive programs, the problems we're talking about, those problems that likely have a clear solution. So you're fixing fixing a broken process. You're using technology to do that. So that's that's the process. But then there's the adaptive challenge which requires shift in values and beliefs or behaviors. So these are cultural changes. And sometimes in organizations, there is resistance to innovation. It's human nature. So how do you how do you get buy in at the top also with, you know, with your frontline employees, how you get the buy in? The second thing is really as a leader, you are leading with empathy and flexibility. So you have to understand people's fears and the losses that are associated with any change that is seismic within the organization you work for, and adjust your leadership style to the situation rather than simply relying on authority. The third is give the work back to the people. So avoid providing all the answers, but empower your employees to help solve the problems that you're seeking, that you've identified, by car that need the that need a prop that need a solve, and encourage experimentation. And the last two, how to navigate conflict and resistance. So really think about what are some of the hidden intentions, that address the issue at hand. So why is someone not wanting to adopt a new technology solution? Is it simply because they say, we've always done it this way. And so then it's like diving in a little bit more and trying to figure out what that is. But it's also trying to maintain that stability while pushing for change. And finally, as a leader, you do have to manage, of course, your own own vulnerabilities, avoid burnout, really stay resilient and self aware as you're trying to make big shifts within your work. And when you're when would you use something like this? I mean, I think we've talked about it a moment ago, but it's really when your organization is going through a period of change, when there's some sort of crisis happening of some sort, or just when old solutions just no longer work and you have to do something differently. And, you know, the problems do require those cultural shifts, not just the technical fix, for long term progress. So that in a nutshell is adaptive leadership. We can have a whole webinar on it, so I won't go into that too too much. We do have some content on the blog as well about adaptive leadership if you are interested in it. But now I'd like to talk I'd like to have some real grounded examples. So we're gonna start with Michael. Michael, tell us what you know, when you hear me give this adaptive leadership definition, how does your adaptive leadership definition resonate with that? Like, what is your adaptive leadership, definition from the trenches of the foil world? Thanks. It's such a great such a great question. So adaptive leadership to me means leading where the answers don't yet exist and you have to kinda create them. So in FOIA, we face massive data volumes, legacy systems, one of those major security breach, and increasing public expectations. Veterans need information. They they need it now in many cases because it's the difference between maybe a home loan, health care, some earned benefit that they need to, that they qualify for. So there was really no playbook for transforming that into a fast, secure, veteran first program. So we we're our own. And for me, adaptive leadership meant empowering teams to make smart risks, to to learn fast, fail fast, build systems that didn't just really process the request, but they kinda honored and strengthened the trust between the veterans and the VA really kind of, honing that constituent relationship and really honoring that. I think the most critical piece of that for us, was probably the empowerment of the line flight officers to be in charge of their work. That's the critical piece in in all honesty here. You know, the leaders couldn't be the easy button for everyone, so we had to create a community of excellence. And that's just what we did, and the results kinda spoke for themselves. Yep. Absolutely. Absolutely. And And I think the same you know, Cathy, the same question for you. You know, you in the financial crimes world, there's a lot of things happening. Right? There's lots of different ways that criminals are trying to game the system, defraud people, you know, etcetera. So one of the things I think of is, like, just cryptocurrency and how it upended financial crimes, and I know you were at the agency at that time. And you didn't have a road map at the when crypto was, like, in its very early stages. So how did you lead without a road map? And would you call that adaptive leadership? Like, how how could you could you walk us through that just very briefly? Yeah, Gina. It's it's amazing because when cryptocurrency or Bitcoin kind of hit even in the beginning, a lot of the agents were interested in it, were aware of it. We kind of learned a little bit about it just enough to know what it meant. But we all honestly thought it wasn't gonna go anywhere. We're like, that's fake money. It's never gonna happen. But there were a few agents out there that were on the forefront and saw the future. And so those individuals really led the charge, and they were just the frontline agents working the cases, not the leaders. We were probably of the old school mindset of not understanding what was going to come up. And so these agents were teaching their managers and their managers' managers and and executives what was gonna come up and what's new by working those cases, learning, going out on their own, and get them doing the research and getting the training. And once we heard about that issue that it's it's gonna be something, it's not just fake, it's the leaders listened, thankfully, to the frontline employees and had to find solutions to make sure that the agents were trained in this area, were allowed to get the tools and resources they needed to be successful in investigating, financial crimes within the crypto area. And there was some real lessons learned there. I think we were a little bit of a flying by the seat of our pants in the beginning because we're all learning this new thing. But I credit the agents at the lowest level to to be the ones on the forefront and and getting us to where we needed to be. There was even a particular in early stages in in investigation, sometimes we seize assets. And, some of those early investigations had Bitcoin or cryptocurrency that we needed to seize, and we didn't have a method to seize the the crypto. We had to create it on the spot, and we've made some you know, not missteps. I would just say we had some lessons learned about how do we, grab it safely, securely, and evidentiary purposes, maintain it in a proper manner, And then and all of law enforcement was going through this issue at the same time. It was not desirous from a patient. Every everybody was in the same boat. And then we even had to wait until the US marshals learned how they could forfeit the crypto and because they usually sell the asset, like, if it's a house or a car, they would sell it. But in this particular instance, crypto, it took a little bit longer because there was, a lot of nuances there. So we had to be adaptable. We had to understand that this was a changing world almost sometimes daily. Obviously, crypto prices change daily if by the minute sometimes. And so you had to learn how to, you know, develop the policy while it was still going, make sure that we weren't gonna hand off our agents to not be able to do what they needed to do. We had to then quickly develop training so that everybody learned how to how to either investigate cryptocurrency or and or, eventually seize it and then deploy the training, which it it was a very long process. We will probably get into it a little bit too. But it was quite an endeavor for the agency to kind of learn how to do it and then ultimately be one of the leaders in investigating crimes that involve cryptocurrency. And that's, you know, that's so interesting too because this is, like, talking about adaptive leadership almost in, like, the reverse because this is your frontline employees were the ones coming to you saying, hey. We've got this crypto Bitcoin. It's not fake money. It's not monopoly money. This is like a real problem we're having. And so it was almost like from the from the frontline up, they had to help educate you all to get you onboard to fight the crime in the way that it needed to. You needed to adapt with the criminals, so to speak. Yes. Absolutely. It was reversed. So, you know, I think when we talk about and I wanna dive into that a little bit more. You Obviously, criminals are becoming more sophisticated. Crypto is a crypto crime is very sophisticated as it is, and the crypto the criminals the alleged criminals continue to innovate, just like we all do, in the noncriminal world. So how did you lead your agents through cases that sometimes presented these novel issues? I mean, how did you follow the money in a cyber world? Great question. And that is a tricky one. We IRS for investigation touts themselves to be the finest financial investigators in the world. Again, financial investigators. There are other agencies that do amazing work in their, particular areas, but we knew how to follow the money. We knew how to follow the money when it was paper currency. It was something, that you could hold in your hand or that see on a in a bank statement or or what have you. Following the money in the cyber world isn't quite as easy. I would say the first major case that we really kinda got, our teeth into and understood a little bit more about, Bitcoin. And and there were there were cases prior to this, but I would say Silk Road was one of the bigger early cases that we identified. Obviously, it was part of the dark net and there was wrongdoing and and sales of things that shouldn't have been sold there. But a lot of the times, the criminals or individuals that were operating in that, website were using crypto to buy items, exchange things. And so that kind of pushed us forward further and quicker to get, IRS criminal investigation to stand up the cybercrime unit. And, I was very, blessed to be the person to help lead the charge in the sense of I did research it and and promoted and, gathered a lot of information and intelligence, talking to external and internal partners. And I was able to present and eventually, the crypto crime section became a large section within our headquarters, where we did not have one previously. There was a couple of things that I would say that was good that we did previously and that we continue to do really good job, which is working with other agencies. Collaborating with, the other agencies that work in this area is super, super important. However, this is a new toy in the sandbox. This is something fun to play with. This is something that the agents were excited about because it was new. And it's, and not every agent out there wants to give their toy up to play with let somebody else play with or even share. And so we had to learn and I had to learn and as did the cybercrime section of CI, how to create those bridges to show what we could contribute as far as the financial world. We didn't want to steal anything else. We didn't want to take it away. We wanted to help contribute and partner with the other agencies to make sure that we move this fall forward. So I wouldn't say I would say we would learn how to do that previously. We just had to enhance that when, we were working in the cyber world because it's not something people think of when you think of IRS. They don't think of cryptocurrency and IRS. Now maybe they do a little bit more because you have to record it and all that good stuff, but at the time, nobody thought of that. So, I think that was something that we had to learn and be adaptive to, the situation at hand. And trying to work with other agencies. I mean, I think that that because what you were saying, like, you if you're in the early stages of crypto, you have this great this this new toy, this new tool, the thing you're trying to use, and you you wanna, like, obviously utilize it. But if you share it with another agency, then what happens? Right? So trying to, like, collaborate is so important, when when you're, going through changes like like this. Yes. And can I add really quick, Gina? Sorry. Just wanted to add, like, it's not just with external agencies. We've put we, IRS communication as well as all the other federal agencies collaborated with a lot of great contractors out there that knew how to follow the money and and freight any sort of cyber, or sorry, cryptocurrency. And so that was crucial and still is crucial in every investigation today is having that expertise in tracing the fund. Yeah. Internal ex internal and external partnerships, like, definitely definitely is important. And one last point on this. So how did you balance secrecy? Obviously, you need some level of secrecy in a criminal investigation with public accountability on what you were doing. Yeah. So always within a criminal investigation, there is a lot of, secrecy rules, grand jury secrecy rules, and within IRS, there's a lot of tax secrecy rules. But what we tried to make sure is we promoted our abilities and the abilities to that we could bring to the table, the abilities of, like, this is what we've been able to successfully achieve on cases that have been adjudicated. So we would promote not promote, talk about cases that have concluded successfully. And so we were very careful about making sure there was secrecy out there, but we also needed to let people know what we've been able to accomplish. And some of this even involves, like, our financial institutions, letting them know, in more generic sense, not person specific, like, what what IRS call investigation has been working on in the cryptocurrency area. And, banks were, you know, hearing a lot about it and seeing money flow through their accounts, and so they needed to be aware so that if they saw something fishy that they could report it to the appropriate authority. Yeah. Absolutely. An awareness campaign is so important because, like, with your financial institutions and, you know, now now we see crypto scams. We see them much more often in the news. There's there's that that crime known as pig butchering, which, we've talked about. I know you and I have talked offline about before, but this comes up a lot more now. And so I think that as, you know, partially probably as a result of the work you all did at the beginning to really socialize what this what the crime risks are here with the banks and with others and the general public. Well, I have one one last point on this and then, and then I'd love to chat with Michael about FOIA. This question let me ask you. What does how does leading through I wouldn't call it chaos, but leading through uncertainty as you did with crypto at the IRS CI. How does that prepare you for your current private sector challenges, like advising clients on tax risks today? Yeah. I mean, even, artificial intelligence and the use of chat t p t is a is a big thing within the law community. There are stories early on when, apparently, some briefs were written using AI, and AI created the cases out of thin air. And so, I think I even read an article today that says something to that effect. So it's it's still ongoing. And, yeah, like you said, it's not necessarily chaos, but it's something that I feel like the the legal community needs to be, one, aware of that capability. And it is extremely helpful. Using AI is extremely helpful in many respects. I would just caution always to double check their work because it's still I would say they're not babies. AI, I don't in in their lifespan, if they're not, like, zero to one year old. I think maybe they're, like, three or four year old so far. And, you would still need to check your three or four year old's homework before letting them send it in. So I would continue to check their homework before sending it in to a judge. So it's something that I'm prepared with our firm to make sure that we keep accountable and make sure we don't misstep, but I also encourage them to be open toward it. It's something that's new and will continue to get better, so we can't ignore it. We can't think that it's fake. We have to know that it's something that's gonna be around for a while. Yeah. And you're in such a great position to do that with your previous work and, dealing with innovation. Michael, so you took an analog FOIA system and you really made it AI ready. Can you can you break this down for us, for the audience and and sort of explain what you're, like, moment was as you were trying to get this backlog down and and innovate within the VA. Can you talk a little bit about what how you made this come about, these changes? Sure. So I think the journey for that really started during the pandemic. We realized so many of our requests were asking for kind of the same information, and this information was literally life and death. So we did things like proactively posting, high interest records that enables to reduce our volume and kind of shifted FOIA from reactive to strategic. That's something that the GAO called us out on as an exemplar to other agencies. So, really, that started to help build institutional trust in the program and the leadership in the direction that we were taking. And so we built program capital in that way. So we helped shape the narrative really, related to COVID in a lot of communities, because we helped tell the story of how the VA was contributing to the entire national response and, you know, that's kind of a part of the mission that's rarely talked about, but is a critical backstop to the nation's health care system in crisis situation. The VA VHA hospitals are there and stand by ready to assist the nation in recovery, and and help. And so those, were kind of the moments that kind of laid our foundation for our success. And then with that institutional support, for the work that we've accomplished, it kinda started that good great flywheel success where it really just started going. So that was kind of the moment. For that was for, you know, kind of proactive disclosure, which led to a lot of other really good things for the requesters and the, the requester community and that building that institutional trust is really critical and that's, you know, laid the foundation for later success for sure. Yeah. And I think, you know, just when you're thinking about your your customer base, if you will, I say customer, but, you know, you're talking about veterans. Yeah. I mean and and you're serving this community and they're sending a request in whether it's for medical records or, you know, what their FOIA request is. Sometimes I think people believe when they send a request into the government, it goes into a black hole. Now I know that's not true. But, you know, when we talk about how you're giving visibility into this process of, hey. I requested a record, and so when will I get an answer on a termination on when I'll get the record? Like, how did you innovate in that respect? Yeah. A couple couple of great ways. One way and you're you're really hitting the nail on the head with the FOIA, and for community, one of the reasons I love working in FOIA. Oftentimes when talking to a requester, you know, we pick up the phone. Like, we're one of the parts of the federal government that still pick up the phone when you call, and we have FOIA public liaisons that do tremendous work across all agencies. And we're able to help and provide that support and give them give folks answers to what they're looking for. But really, requester portals, the opportunity to provide the requester with a window into into what they were, what they were looking for. You know, everyone's seeing the Domino pizza tracker and things like that. You know exactly where your pizza is. Bob's making it. Susie's boxing it. And Johnny's, you know, got it in the center and he's headed to your house. And so now your kids will be happy, and you can get all the movie night. Right? So, likewise, with the with the portals, requesters could see exactly where they were. You know, John was working on it, Susie was reviewing it, and Alina was certifying it. It's good to go and it's out and it's kind of out out the door. But the the practical effect of that, again, where metrics are so very important, it would demonstrate to leadership that, hey. This cut our inquire inquiry emails by 50%. So now instead of someone who always fix up the phone and responds, now you have got a situation where that individual can focus on high priority work, getting requests out the door, and eliminating many, you know, obviated need for these individuals super to make this inquiry at all because their request is done. And really, as you as we saw our speed go up and our backlogs crater, again, that flywheel success just kept going and, you know, all found in the moment and you build and you build and you build and a lot of that's all adaptive because you don't know necessarily what challenge is coming around the next corner. But if you have that foundation of success and that leadership support in those metrics and portal in those tools, then you can really, you can really move mountains. Yeah. Yeah. And I think you especially when you're saying you you're not sure, like, what challenges might present themselves within this process. I mean, you you don't know, especially with I'm gonna keep saying customer. If they're a customer base here, you're not sure. Like, if you're putting a request or portal in place, will they use it? Will they utilize it? You know, I I think from a customer service standpoint, if you can just see where your request is, then, like, for me and I'm not a veteran, but when I'm calling a customer service, with a number, I if I see all of the information in front of me, then maybe I don't need to make that phone call. Right? And so, it makes sense, and I think it it does it can end up building trust with with those the those that you're serving. But with all of that, how did you convince other VA leaders that any of these innovations that you were making, that they wouldn't expose veteran data, their privacy concerns, any of that? How did you work on convincing them? Yeah. I mean, transparency, what I the field that that that has been my calling is all about trust, and it's all about building that trust. And at VA, it's particularly important because if the veteran doesn't trust the organization, they're not gonna go to that to that organization who who exists to support them for things like their health care, maybe mental health, any, you know, any type of health that they might might have. So protecting that trust is really, really a sacred obligation for every individual that works at the Veterans Administration regardless of your regardless of your position or where you're at in the, in the org chart, really protecting that that sacred honoring that sacred obligation and ensuring that that information is kept, kept secure. And the the kind of the AI and the the increase in in that technology is is evolving. It's something I'm focused on every day. You know, we don't lead with AI. We lead with trust. We lead with results. You know, we can show that, AI can, an automation really someone's really robotic process automation, so I'm gonna say, I a lot of it gets kind of put with, you know, paint with a really broad brush is that, you know, we could flag duplicate documents, sort content, streamline redaction, all without compromising privacy, you know, by staying kind of in our side sandbox. And when you make that argument for leadership, they understand that, you know, you can, be fast and secure at the same time and then that their support kind of kind of, kind of follows. But again, all of that is built, you know, through that institutional support with results. So you prove yourself that you can you can accomplish this, you know what you're doing in this space, and then you get that leadership buy in and support. Hey. Those guys know what they're doing over there. They cut backlogs 90%. These guys know what they're doing over there. They fully implemented the SaaS product, which I've been utilized really and to its capabilities. Now everyone now nearly a thousand people across 12 time zones are using this. We see the metrics. We know what's happening. There's real results and then by doing that, you kinda build that support. But that's something you have to earn every single day. You know, every time you, you know, clock in, you gotta be on it. You gotta be thinking about trust and you gotta be thinking about security. Because if you don't, the second you'd stop thinking about that is the second you have a a situation that could be uncomfortable. Yeah. And you I mean, it and then with this especially with veterans, privacy and is is so critical, especially with what you just said a moment ago. We're talking about mental health records. We're talking about, like, their health just in general health records. And so all of this is is so important that they get the care they need, obviously, because they've they've served our country. So this is I think this is this is really, really inspiring to hear. And then in terms of just that fourteen month timeline that we spoke about earlier about how you got down that FOIA backlog, can you discuss a little bit more about how you got out of that? I mean, you've you've talked about it, but could you drill down directly into that? Sure. I mean, so really what happens in a lot of federal spaces for jobs or for careers like this, it's collateral duty. So FOIA can be a part of a lot of things of a portfolio that people are doing. People didn't necessarily feel confident. So They didn't feel confident, so they didn't really feel like they could handle this work. So it was really easy to kinda put it to the side. So what we had to do was create a community of excellence, a community of operators that would support each other, you know, where I'm not the easy button or anyone else isn't the easy button where they support and call on each other. So we did lunch and learns where, you know, hey, bring your case in and you don't leave with, hey, I can't believe you're still working on the things. Like, hey, how can I help you move this out the door? You know, and people started answering questions for each other. The chat on teams for this, coughing cases, meetings with trademarked, yeah, was is nonstop. You know, someone throwing in a topic and then someone else responding, like, oh, this is how you do that or this is how it happens. And because they know next week, they're gonna have a question and that same person's gonna know how to fix it. And it just becomes a community of people organized around one central goal, and that is service to the veterans who have served us. And that's really what what happens. I think that's one of the great things about VA is that the mission is such an easy mission to to get behind many so many of us are veterans and we wanna help our fellow veterans. But even the people that aren't veterans feel called to help in in that way as you mentioned, Gina, because it's such a, you know, these are men and women who have dedicated their lives to our country. And it's very easy to say, yeah. I'm gonna go I'm gonna work as hard as I can to make sure that we're giving those men and women what they've earned. Well, absolutely. Absolutely. Well, I'm gonna turn to I'm gonna do a sector comparison now, because we're talking about public sector work and how it's so mission driven. And if you're you're working in the public sector, you're likely there for a reason because you believe in helping the public. And so, Kathy, I would like to ask you, you know, I wonder if this little bit facetious, but but serious. What's harder when you compare your world that you've been involved now, public and private sector. Getting an IRS agent to adopt crypto tools for their investigations or convincing, you know, your law firm partners to consider new technology tools to use in their cases, or is it about the same? I would say it's equal. Although, it is a probably a little generational too. Those that grew up, technologically savvier than others will probably adopt a little quicker or maybe that they're a little more open minded. But it it it's about equal. Like we were saying before, the agents were the ones that kind of raised the alert for the leaders within IRS for investigation to kind of get on the crypto and the cybercrime bandwagon. And so I think maybe the older, I hate to say it, but older people like me, we we were a little slower to the to coming to that realization that was happening. Now in law firms, I have been hearing for the last couple of years since I've been on this side, There's some people that have really embraced it, and feel like it's gonna be great or it is great for them. I've heard some people using it for emails all the time, which I to me, I'm not quite ready for emails yet to take over or AI to take over my emails, but I I know it's gonna be great. Where I feel like it's really helping is in the discovery world, which is I know we're on Everlaw. This is not a commercial, but it is something that is is super important is that when we're going through thousands upon thousands of records to respond to a subpoena or a summons or request from the government, we need that help in order to keep costs down for our clients as well as save ourselves some time and heartache. And so I feel like the more savvy law firms that have those young associates that are ready to, you know, bite the bullet and and dive in are doing a really good job of embracing AI into their lives on a daily basis. Yeah. And I think it's it's really about how comfortable are you with technology. Right? And do you trust it? But that can be learned as well as as we're talking about today when we talk about adaptive how to create adaptive changes. You know, if you're watching other leaders within your organization utilizing these tools and they're utilizing it with a degree of success, then maybe you might be more comfortable in using it yourself. So, it well, Michael, you with at the at the VA, you were facing I wouldn't say resistance, but maybe maybe pushback, from leadership. Would you say would you receiving more pushback on AI or this idea of and this is something you and I have talked about offline, remote work policies. So I know that was, like, a big thing for a while allowing employees to work remotely, particularly we're talking about the pandemic. Both are adaptive changes, like, changes that, like, really require a big shift, in in your mindset as as leadership. So would you say there was more resistance for one or the other or about both? That's fascinating. It's such a good question, right, when you think about these two, you know, paradigm shifts that that that we that we go on. But honestly, I would have to say on balance, it would have to be remote work because, you know, AI is new and exciting and most people wanna be on board, you know, as as Kathy mentioned, we wanna be able to talk to our maybe their grandkids or their nieces and nephews or the, you know, people around the, the barbecue about this exciting AI stuff that they're doing. And people don't wanna be out of the loop. They wanna understand, you know, kind of what's going on so they can lean into it. That's why you see every proposal is draped in AI whether it's RPA or anything else. You know, people stick an AI sticker on it and, you know, and call it agentic and, you know, give you a 30% increase in the, in the invoice. So, you know, people wanna be for that. On the remote work side, that's a just a shift for the way a lot of senior folks have come up or how they've how they've, you know, how they've grown up in an organization. They're used to these things, and they have legitimate fears about lack of mentoring, about what people are gonna be doing, whether they're gonna watch Days of Our Lives or The Price is Right and not be, you know, on the on the job. They've got a mouse jiggler or something going on. But, you know, I was fortunate at VHA because a lot of my team was remote, and we leaned into video, and still people on the on the Foya side are like the something that the kind of the outliers because they're they pop on the meetings and they're always on video and then half the other half the other teams in different disciplines are like, what are you doing? You're on video. Well, that's what Mike said we're gonna do and that's what, you know, that's what it's gonna do. I feel like that really is critical in in in in a connection because, you know, none of us are radio DJs kinda talking into a microphone like, hey. Here it is. These top hits. But when you can see someone, you can start to actually build a a semblance of a relationship. Right? Like, you can much, much, much, much easier than you can through, you know, the speaker phone. So, you know, the that I would say, honestly, the the most more resistance were our remote policies and as everyone knows, you know, that kind of pendulum is swung way back the other way now. But I think like all pendulums, it'll swing back and it'll find kind of a kind of a happy medium. And ultimately, at the end of the day, it's gonna be about production. And if you can produce if you can demonstrate production, then the rest of the you know, there's enough problems for leadership that if you can be productive at a different spot, hey, go for it. Right? You know, make it happen and bring in and bring in the results. And again, that's part of building a successful program, building that institutional capital, and getting that earned autonomy, that earned autonomy that you get from, you know, the trust that you get from delivering results. And so I think we'll see that pendulum, you know, kind of find a a happy ground here in the next probably, six to eighteen months. Well, where do you see and this will be a question for both of you. But, Michael, I'll start with you. Where do you see the most untapped potential for adaptive leadership in your particular sector? Yeah. And one of the reasons I'm so excited about this this topic today is I had the opportunity to be exposed to Ron Heifetz, in grad school. Leadership Without Easy Answers, a lot of his work, really, really important work that he's that he's done and his colleagues, up in Cambridge. I think really in the the middle management stages, your your your twelves, your thirteens, you know, like those those folks, on the on the federal side. You know, they're the ones that are taking that strategic vision into frontline execution. Oftentimes though, they don't have they don't feel that support that, you know, hey, I hear you. I see what you're doing. You're taking operational excellence and you're putting it into operation, and we appreciate that they're not being celebrated. They're not being honored for that work in in that way. That, you know, that reaffirms it and and makes a virtuous, cycle, a virtuous loop there. So I think really, you know, kinda giving the work to those people and letting them take, you know, kind of real ownership, that kinda Jocko willing extreme ownership over their programs. I think that's really the spot where Hypeth's, and his colleagues that where their work really shines and where it's super applicable to everybody who's, you know, who's, tuning in here is, you know, empower those folks in accordance with Hypeth's kind of paradigm here and really see the results that, that that you wanna say. That's from And middle management is is the closest to to those employees that are on the ground doing the work. So absolutely. Absolutely. Kathy, I mean, same question for you, and it it doesn't have to be just in the private sector. I mean, you could go back to your public sector time as well. Like, where would you see, like, this potential? This untapped potential for how to utilize that Well, yeah. Thank you. I I would say in the private sector, I I don't wanna repeat myself, but getting into AI and the use of it is is definitely probably the biggest change that is been happening and will continue to happen that the legal field needs to continue to evolve and, quote, unquote, adapt to. But moving back into my old cues of the federal government and law enforcement, obviously, there's a lot of things happening in the in the world today and and, particularly, there's a lot of, reduction of workforce. And so those individuals that I used to be, to work with at IRS, they need to do the same amount of work with a few less people, and they need to adapt in the sense of you cannot do it always the same way with the same with less people. Sure. One of the old commissioners used to say, I can't do more with less. You're just gonna get less of less. I'm not gonna say that. I I won't say less of less. I will say you need to think differently so that you can try to achieve the same with less people, and that could be processy. And I I know the government is really good at laying out the processes of how to do something. But sometimes, I think they're so ingrained with those processes. They they forget how to be, innovative and, within policy, make changes to streamline it a little bit. And so I think that's one of the biggest, challenges that I see within my old agency is being more streamlined and more innovative and and how to accomplish their goals with less. And I think that that does help very nicely into this the next section around when you when you are innovating, you do need the right culture for that and that that is your people. I mean, those are the people you hire, the people that you surround yourself with. So how do you build that culture with the hiring phase, the training phase, and then just retaining talent in general? So, you know, the best tools obviously fail without the right people. So, Kathy, when you were at IRSCI, do would you say in in hiring or just at least in having your agents, there, would you prioritize the skill set that they came to the agency with the mindset? Was it a combination of both? Like, how did you think about hiring? When I thought about hiring, I think I was more toward the mindset. And the reason probably is because of how I came into the agency. I was still in college. I interned with IRS law investigation. I knew nothing. I I literally knew nothing. And the agency trained me on how to do everything, how to be a law enforcement officer, how to investigate crime, and then continue to train me to be a effective leader as I grew into more and more higher roles. And so, but the mindset of wanting to be a learner, wanting to to absorb everything you could so that you could do a better job is probably what I look for more in a person, and then those are the ones that are on the forefront of things. They're the ones that want to train others, so they get trained first. Those are the the individuals who I really, think that are successful and will make the agency successful. Yeah. Obviously, because oh, you said you you didn't come in with, like, necessarily, like, IRS perfect skills at the time, but now I mean, but look where your career took you. So, no. I think that's that's really great advice. Michael, a little bit of a different question for you on just on training. What training methods would you say prepare FOIA staff for unknown future demands? Yeah. That's a great question. So just like Kathy said, no one knows anything when they start. I I came in as a presidential management fellow with a law degree from a great university, University of Maryland, and felt like, you know, hey. I'm well trained. I'm equipped. The president said that I'm gonna be his management fellow, so I must know everything. Right? I didn't know anything, and no one knows anything when they start. And so, you know, you have to have that expectation. Okay. John and Jane, when they start, they're just not gonna know. But if you hire, like, as Kathy, you know, intimated there, for curiosity and for passion, permission, and for the rest of those, you know, kinds of things, the curious person, the critical thinker will be able to excel in any of these roles because they'll learn and they'll get into it and they'll want to learn because they're curious and they want to figure out, you know, kind of why behind things. So on the VA side for FOIA, last year, we had 12,600 training interactions and a 100% of them were voluntary. So you had about a thousand people every month taking training, you know, and keep it you know, again, important to keep those those metrics. And the the trainings, of course, were important substantively, but they were more critical to the community building because the trainings are open talking about real cases and information that will literally impact them every day for for their for their work. And really what that what made those interesting and we continue to make those interesting for people is because in every career, you have to make judgment calls all the time. The trains are designed our trains are designed to help you make those judgment calls. Here's a critical situation that you're gonna face and Here's how someone else did did that, you know, and everywhere from The Philippines to Puerto Rico. This is how they handle that, how they how they did that. So the individuals, if they see real value in that training, those people will attend religiously, put other things to the side, and choose to be a part of your, a part of the community that you're building. So I think for those I think those methods are the ones that are really important. You can't just PowerPoint people to depth because the people just tune out. Right? So Right. But if you make them interesting and engaging and for our team, you just ask a simple question, what do I wanna learn? Oh, okay. Well, let me teach that. Because you don't learn anything, you know, with real mastery until you're starting to have to teach it, you know, breaking it down in simple language and the rest of it. So it helps our it helps our team out as as well-to-be able to to, to do that. But all that to say is that, you know, that training is just so very critical in the community building if it's done in a way that brings people together. Well, how do you train for problems that don't yet exist? Oh, well, just frameworks. You teach, you know, the same way I teach my my kids to handle challenges. You know, I I I can't be there all the time for my 10 and 13 year old, but you can be certain that they're getting into to some sort of, Sarah branded mischief because, you know, they're my children. This is how we do it. But, yeah, just the framework. Like, how do you interact with these adults? How do you interact? You know, how do you how are you a good teammate? You know? Then there's a if there's a play that goes awry, you know, I'm saying the first base coach for for the AYRAA's, not champion AYRAA's this year. So, you know, you can't teach thank you. So you credit the players. And head coach because I'm just first base coach. But it's really it's all about, you know, teaching them like, hey. If the play goes if the play goes poorly in the field, that's okay. There's another batter and there's another inning and there's another opportunity, you know, you get to play in the field and you get to be at bat. So you teach them those, those frameworks that this is how you handle the these things, and then they can handle themselves and then they're not coming to you with every question. Right? Because they have a solution already baked in. And teaching resilience and yeah. Abs absolutely. Yeah. Kathy, same question for you. Like, how do you train for problems that don't exist? As a former law enforcement officer and getting trained in some, obviously, law enforcement could always be, in a situation where there's threat of life or threat of harm to other people or whatever it is. And so, there's very good training that IRS COVID station made sure that every agent had on a quarterly basis, not just once a year. Quarterly, they would have to go through a lot of training. I was an instructor, for many years as well in both firearms and and, what we call defensive tactics. Just how to how to defend yourself against an attack. And so there's no way you can train for every situation. There's zero chance. You just put enough training into the schedule so that individuals can then do their own critical critical quick syncing to make sure that, one, they're making sure that they're safe, that their partner is safe, and that the public is safe. And so, thankfully, we had a lot of good, training scenarios that you would have individuals go through and make them think through. There's, nowadays, a really great, AI related training where you could put on those lovely glasses and and pretend you're out in the field, reacting to situations. And so, I feel like law enforcement, or at least in my old agency, we did a really good job of making sure that they were prepared to go out and and face whatever. But it all comes down to the mindset of the person and how they can react, in a stressful situation. And so you can't always train for everything and you hope everything goes right as long as you give them the tools to do what you need them to do in a safe manner. Yeah. It sounds like and you and Michael are saying, I think, the the same thing, which is great. Like, you train, like, the just the basic framework, like Michael said. And then if they have that foundation, then they can build from it like you were saying, Kathy. So I think, you guys are are definitely very aligned on that. What about, Michael, one outdated practice that you wish would disappear? Oh, for sure. There's so many. But one of the one of the things that people think about when they think about FOIA is it's, you know, there's a ginormous filing cabinet and people treat FOIA like a paper process. And, you know, we're printing PDFs to scan them into systems to do all these things and Nard won't even accept paper any longer. So, you know, kinda treating it like a paper process, understanding the digitization and understanding the the technology and really embracing it. We did in the chief oil officer's technology committee, you know, fortunate to co found that with Eric Stein to hopefully get that thinking in, in place that it's not a paper process. These are digital records that we can get back and, you know, they'll be they'll be good quality copies that are certified and people can can utilize, them. I literally got back last week a copy of records, for my for my time in the Army Reserve And it was a paper and I was like, you could've sent me an email and, like, so much you know, so it just hurt my heart a little bit to to to have that, but I really think if there was something I could change, or some of the practice that would disappear, it is, you know, kind of stopping that, that thought process of of avoiding a paper process because it's not any longer. And the tools are here and now it's time to embrace them for sure. And it reduces on mail and postage and trees and paper and all that. Like Right? Environment. Less gas. Yeah. Everything. Right? You know? So We've got we've got enough Amazon drivers on the street right now, so we don't need more mail going back and forth. Cathy, do you anything to add there on outdated practice that you wish would disappear? I mean, I I can't say enough that I I agree with Mike about this because it's, IRS still deals with a lot of paper still, unfortunately. Yes. Your electronic 10:40 goes in and that's wonderful and more business tax returns are going in, but then there's those odds and ends that don't go in electronically. And I know IRS has been trying very hard to change over to more electric like, electronic, digital communication. But we also have to be careful about, unfortunately, impersonations. Scammers impersonate IRS and want, you know, your information, and, unfortunately, people believe that. And so there's a very tough balance as to whether or not, how much you need to go to electronic in order to make sure you maintain your privacy and all that good stuff. So, yes, I would love to get rid of paper, but I think I see a value in having paper in some areas, I'll just say. I don't want it to be that way, but, unfortunately, because of scammers out there, it's still there. And that's that is such a great point, I think, and it's very specific with that with IRS that, you know, IRS doesn't they they don't text people. They're not calling people. There's a lot of scams that are coming through that way. And so the sometimes just having that that letter show up in the mail from the IRS might be a better way to to protect against against scams and fraud and crime. So For right now. And hopefully, someday in the in our lifetime, they'll have a better way to communicate, securely and safely with each taxpayer. Yes. Absolutely. Well, we have just a few more minutes here. So I wanna do something called a lightning round. So doesn't have to be, like don't have to be two second answers, but we'll go, like, kind of wrap more rapid fire on this one. And so I wanna get tactical on this. So, Kathy, I'm gonna start with you. What is your one tip for persuading risk averse teams? One tip that I used successfully in my career is to identify your influencers, Like, the social media influencers that are out there that influence your young children to buy certain things because it's cool. Find those influencers within your team that are respected amongst your teams. And try to work with them, get their buy in and sense of, like, hey. What do you need so that this can work? And then they'll share that with their team, and you'll have another cheerleader within, on your side to move the ball forward. So find those influencers. Find the influencer. Find the cheerleader. I like it. Michael, what is one tech tool every FOIA office should consider utilizing? For sure. It's gotta be smart redaction with, you know, appropriate audit trails. If people are black boxing, paper, you know, PDFs, you're wasting a ton of time, you're risking errors, and you're gonna be duplicating your own efforts over and over and over again. So if you're not if you don't have smart redaction in your toolbox, get it there as fast as you can and enjoy the results because that's definitely, a tool that you that you need. Gotta have in your toolbox. Very very good. Very practical, on that. This one will be for both of you. So what is when you think about the success measuring the success of adaptive leadership, Cathy, I'll start with you. What's what would you say your report card metric is? Like, how do you know if it's working? I think the biggest thing that I used was communication with the users and not going through the levels of management to find out what the user is saying, with actually talking and communicating with the those individuals that are actually doing the change, that are that are struggling to learn something or to adapt to something new. I want to have that follow-up and learn from them, the the pluses and the minuses because I don't wanna just, hear it third hand from different layers. I need to talk to the people. Yeah. One on one communications. Yeah. Agreed. Michael, how about you? What's your metric? Sure. I mean, the metrics are so so very critical. So for me, it's backlog ratio with the ratio of the requests are that are in and out combined with employee engagement because you can't have one without the other. If your employees aren't engaged, your your backlogs are never gonna take care of themselves. The cases are never gonna take care of themselves, and that ratio is going up. It's a good barometer to know, hey. Something's going on, and you need to step in with good leadership and make it happen. Last question. What traits really matter most in all of this and and really, really driving the adoption of, processes processes or tech tools that will hopefully innovate, your organization. So what would you say what trade matters most? Is it flexibility, data driven decisions, empathy, or just pure grit to get it done? Cathy, what would you say? Or is it a combination? I obviously, it's just gotta be a combination, but I gravitated toward grit or determination. I will make sure it gets done. If you task me with something, it will get done. Now will it will it be the result you want it to be? Maybe not. It's what it happens. Like, I go through the entire process and make sure that we achieve some level of success, whether or not it's that no, we don't go forward with this project, or, yes. We can, and here is how we can do it. So I am determined to get it done, and that's where I where I think that I see it the most. What trait matters the most. Well, what's that what's that cliche phrase I'm gonna use? Where there's a will, there's a way. And so you've got you've got that. Michael, I'll leave you with the last word on this. What trait matters most to you? Or is it something else terrible. Well, there's a lot. I mean, it's kinda like a rainbow. All the colors matter and all of them, you know, are kind of kind of kind of part of it. But for me, it it's gotta be empathy because every redacted document, every time we delay a request, it impacts someone's life directly. And so I think adaptive leadership really starts with remembering that there's a person behind that request, and that's kinda your Simon Sinek why. Like, you know, why are you doing this? Because there's a person who needs this. And so if you can stay grounded in the fact that there's you're impacting a human another human being, another American's life in a positive way with your work, then it's really easy understanding that why to be motivated and to have that grit, to kind of pull that grit and then to, to deliver in the end for the people that have delivered for us so often time and, time again. Very, very well said. Well, thank you all. Couple takeaways for you just to wrap wrap this up for the for everyone in our audience. Adaptive leadership is really about creating playbooks rather than just simply following them, creating them when they don't exist. I think we've heard this from both Kathy and Michael today. Trust is really the currency of change. So whether with your agents on the ground, whether an algorithm, it's really about it's about trust and and showing results. And the best solutions often come from empowering those closest to the problem. And, Kathy, you had great example of that, Michael. You did too. So just when it comes to disruption, it's not an obstacle. It's not your obstacle. It's your opportunity to see how to do something different, which could give you a better outcome. So, Kathy and Michael, you've proved this today. I wanna thank you so much. It's just it's a it's a real pleasure to have both of you, your, such seasoned veterans at this. And so I'm honored to moderate a panel with both of you. And thank you for giving us your time, sharing your wisdom, and, thank you for everyone who tuned in with us today. Any final words, Michael or Kathy, before we sign off? I just a huge thank you to everyone to who's, who who's tuning in and to Gina and, of course, to Cathy. It's an absolute honor to be here with you guys. I'm just so thrilled to, to be able to share this time and to learn so much from both, Kathy and and Eugene and today. So thank you guys so much for this. I don't know if I can say it any better. So I just wanna say thank you to both of you, and thank you to the audience who are listening to us for the last hour. And, we're available, I think, via social media or I should say, net, LinkedIn anytime if you have any questions for us. Yep. Connect with our speakers on LinkedIn, and, stay tuned for our next Everwild webinar. Thank you all so much. Have a great day.